Stories That Stay

Love, Protection, and the Weight of Racial Stress with Lisa Nelson-Haynes

• petersontoscanostudios@gmail.com • Season 1 • Episode 1

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In this powerful premiere of Stories That Stay, co-hosts Shamm Petros and Dwight Dunston converse with Lisa Nelson-Haynes—Executive Director of Lion’s Story and former Chief Programs Officer at StoryCorps—about a childhood memory that shaped her identity and her career. Lisa revisits a vivid moment when her father confronted racial disrespect, exploring how that act of love, protection, and trauma informed her journey. Their conversation weaves storytelling, emotion, and mindful reflection, illustrating how early experiences continue to inform our work toward healing and justice.

Guest Bio: Lisa Nelson-Haynes

Lisa Nelson-Haynes leads Lion’s Story with decades of experience as a digital storytelling facilitator and nonprofit strategist. Before joining Lion’s Story, Lisa served as the Chief Programs Officer at StoryCorps, overseeing programs in interview collection, learning and engagement, recording and archiving, and research and evaluation. She previously served as Executive Director of Philadelphia Young Playwrights (PYP), where she centered youth storytelling as a tool for social change. Lisa’s storytelling roots run deep: she has built award-winning workshops and podcasts, including PYP’s podcast Mouthful, and facilitated digital storytelling programs for the Pennsylvania Humanities Council, Drexel University’s Center for Nonviolence and Social Justice, and others.

Host Bios

  • Shamm Petros, Senior Director of Learning & Development at Lion’s Story, brings training grounded in the organization’s 35+ years of racial literacy research and a story-forward approach to racial healing

  • Dwight Dunston, a mindfulness practitioner and storyteller, provides the emotional grounding and reflective prompts that model racial stress processing through the body.

Featured Quotes

“Even at four years old, I knew that man had crossed a line.”

“As I’ve grown older, I see my father’s actions as love, protection, and the weight he carried every day.”

What This Episode Offers

This episode lays the foundation for Stories That Stay, introducing listeners to Lion’s Story’s core approach—storytelling as a pathway to racial literacy, healing, and authentic inclusion. It demonstrates:

  • How early memory anchors identity and influence.
  • The integration of emotional awareness, mindful reflection, and storytelling as tools for navigating racial stress.
  • The lived leadership of a storyteller who has shaped nonprofit, creative, and civic spaces for equitable dialogue.

Stories That Stay is a project of Lion’s Story, a nonprofit dedicated to building racial literacy through storytelling, mindfulness, and healing. Rooted in over 35 years of research by Dr. Howard C. Stevenson at the University of Pennsylvania, our work guides individuals and institutions to reclaim their stories, reduce identity-based stress, and step into authentic inclusion—not as a checklist, but as a way of being.

Produced and edited by Peterson Toscano.
Mindful moment music by Dwight Dunston.
Music by Epidemic Sound.

Podcast site: StoriesThatStay.net

Hosts: Shamm Petros and Dwight Dunston


>> Shamm Petros:

Welcome to Stories that Stay. How stories of Identity shape who we become. This is a podcast where healing happens at the intersection of art, science, and storytelling. I'm Sean Petros, a therapist, learning strategist, refugee, and reluctant creative.

>> Dwight Dunstan:

And I'm Dwight Dunston, a facilitator, educator, artist, and proud uncle. Stories that Stay podcast is a project of Lion Story.

>> Shamm Petros:

Together at Lion Story, an organization grounded in over 35 years of research in psychology, racial socialization and human development. Dwight and I have spent the last five years training thousands of people to confront identity based trust and transform their stories into tools for healing and change. At home, in the office, online, but mostly within themselves.

>> Dwight Dunstan:

Um, each episode of this podcast will offer practical tools and reflective questions to help you navigate identity and difference with more clarity and less fear. Whether you're an educator, organizer, artist, or someone simply trying to make sense of what you've been feeling in the world around you, you're in the right place.

>> Shamm Petros:

In our opening season, we'll explore stories of resilience, rupture and repair, guided by people who, uh, have found the language for some of their hardest truths. Fair warning, it will get emotional, but for us, that's the point we believe, and the research shows that when we can feel and accurately name our emotions, we are able to heal and resolve experiences in ways that support us in the present and future. Moments of trust and intensity.

>> Dwight Dunstan:

As we arrive at today's story, we want to take a moment to settle in together. So wherever you are, whether you're walking, driving, or resting, we invite you to take a few breaths. Just for you. Inhale, um. And exhale. Inhale and exhale. And for the next 45 seconds, continue to breathe just in that manner with this audio reprieve.

>> Shamm Petros:

It.

>> Dwight Dunstan:

M. Our guest today is Lisa Nelson Haynes, who is the Executive Director of Lion Story, where she leads the organization's work in building racial literacy through storytelling, mindfulness and education. Lisa is a longtime advocate for helping people claim their stories as a path to healing and justice. Before joining Lion Story, Lisa was the Chief programs officer at StoryCorps, leading national initiatives like One Small Step and the Mobile Tour. Lisa is also the former Executive Director of Philadelphia Young Playwrights and co creator of the award winning podcast Mouthful. Lisa's career has always centered on the power of personal narrative and the belief that everyone's story matters. Welcome, Lisa.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

Hello, you guys. How are you? It's so good to be with the both of you today. Sham and Dwight. I'm really looking forward to this conversation.

>> Shamm Petros:

We couldn't have imagined a Better. First guest, Lisa. Uh, we're so happy to have you here today.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

Thank you.

>> Dwight Dunstan:

So happy. So happy. And before we dive into your first story, we want to just ask you, how are you arriving today? And, you know, we love scales at Blind Story. So on a scale from 1 to 10, how are you feeling about sharing your story today? With 1 being not stressed at all and 10 being like, Whoa, I'm very stressed.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

I would say I'm probably. At first of all, I feel great. I woke up today excited and curious regarding how this experience was going to be, and I think I might be stressed. Maybe I'm not really stressed. I'm at a 2, you know, because I'm here with friends, so that. That makes it easier.

>> Shamm Petros:

Thank you, Lisa. And, you know, you were well prepared for the session. Um, our episode this whole season is actually formulated around one question we're asking all of our guests. You know this question very well. We've asked dozens, thousands of people this question whenever they enter our doors. Um, and you've actually responded. Responded to this prompt several times already. Um, but what I love about the nature of storytelling is how generative. Generative it is. So every time we tell our story, we learn something new. We experience something new. Um, so with that caveat, I want to elevate the problem for you once more and ask you to share what are some of the earliest memories of difference that you recall while growing up?

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

Yes, I, um. I've been thinking about this a lot, and like you said, I've. I've had the opportunity to share.

>> Dwight Dunstan:

Um.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

Some of these experiences in the past. The, um, before I share that, I think that it's really interesting that I've always had issues with memory. Right. There's just certain things. Some people I know, they can hear a song and they can say, I heard that song when I was in. I remember that from fourth grade. You know what I mean? And I could never do that, right? I mean, I go to my college reunion, and it's like I need to bring a yearbook or something with me to be able to remember everybody. But this. These earlier memories are so distinct, and I wonder why these are so distinct. But other ones don't seem to stick as much. Right? So my earliest memory, it's. It's. Was pretty traumatic. It was pretty traumatic. I, um. I was 4 years old, and I heard my. I was with my parents at a gas station, and I heard, um, a white man call my father the N word. And before I knew it, my father was pounding this guy in his Face Just, you know, just hitting him in his face. I don't. I. You know, there. Of course, there's blanks in the memory, but I just remember that my father was clearly, um, just beating this guy up. And this guy had. He had no power to defend himself, really. Um, and I remember, oddly enough, seeing something that was violent in this way. I was very calm. Um, my mother was very upset at the moment and was really trying to stop my dad from, um, hitting the guy. But, um, it took a couple. It took. It took a little bit of time, I would say about a minute and a half for him to just kind of, like, let the guy go after. And the guy's face was bloody and the whole bit. And my mother was just really upset. She was upset that she thought that my father was going to, um, be arrested or something. I don't know. But I was eerily calm. And in reflecting on why I was so calm, I really believe it's because in my mind at that time, that guy had clearly done something wrong to my dad, disrespected him. I might not have had the language for it, but I knew that my dad's response was because he was disrespected. And I knew that that word was not a word that we used. I knew it was a bad word. So, um, for me, I think a lot of people would be shocked that I thought that my father's, um, behavior was warranted. And there was, again, for me, a positive aspect that came from that, which was, don't mess with me or my father. My, you know, my father, he will take care of it. And it gave me a certain amount of confidence to walk through the world because I knew I could always depend on my dad to take care of that situation. So that was one of my first memories. And then another memory I have, which is much lighter but still somewhat traumatic, is I remember being in the supermarket line to check out with my mom again. I was still four years old. And my mother, who's very fair, with gray blue eyes, I said to her in line, mom, how come you're white and Daddy and I are black? And my mom said that I would ask that question quite a bit. I don't remember that, but I remember this time when she kind of lost it. And she was just like, listen, I'm black, you're black, your dad's black, were all black, and stopped asking me that question. And it was loud enough that other people in other aisles were just, like, looking at my mom. My mom was exasperated by that. And so I just never did, I never questioned it again. I was like, all right, I got it, I got it there. So you know, those are things where I don't know necessarily how they're connected, but there were just very definitive moments, you know, for me that I walked away with. And I was, and I was young, like I said, I was four. Those are my earliest memories.

>> Shamm Petros:

Can I invite you to take a breath, as you are, as you wish, Whatever feels good. Thank you for sharing. Um, do I have your permission maybe to ask a few process questions, follow up questions?

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

Sure, sure.

>> Shamm Petros:

To the story behind the stories. Um, so the first set of questions I'm going to ask you, you're familiar with them, they're a mindfulness strategy and that is their initial goal, right. To make sure we are present here as you share the story. Um, and I would say with a sub goal of reading the metadata that our feelings embody and even some of our self talk is telling us about these, our first stories. Um, mhm. So one of the first questions I'm going to ask is for you to name each, any and all feeling you have about the feeling. A feeling you thought you had back then, a feeling you have now. If you could just start to name all the feelings associated.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

I would say, um, now, I mean, I'm still.

>> Shamm Petros:

Really.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

Proud of my dad. You know, I, I still am. I still am. Even with his reaction, I just feel like he saw himself as not only probably, um, he was, he was identifying that he wouldn't be disrespected in that space. And he definitely wasn't going to take being disrespected in front of his family.

>> Shamm Petros:

Okay.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

And even though there might have been another way for him to address it, I don't know, you know, um, he was very clear in that moment. And for me, as I mentioned, it made me feel, I felt safe and taken care of, you know, like nothing was going to. No one was uh, ever going to, wasn't gonna, I don't know. I just knew that he had our backs regardless, at all times had our backs.

>> Shamm Petros:

Okay, if I can maybe read back out what I'm hearing. You share a lot of pride. You're proud of your father.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

Okay.

>> Shamm Petros:

Um, Safe. You felt safe.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

Mhm. Safe. Very safe. Okay.

>> Shamm Petros:

I love the details. Calm. You also felt calm. I think earlier you said eerily calm. That still holds.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

It's almost like sham. It's almost like I was watching something on tv. It didn't feel like physically I was present in that space with him in that Moment. Like there was. I was watching something.

>> Shamm Petros:

That is a great distinction because, you know, there is a, uh, dichotomy between eerily calm and. I believe you started the story by saying it was traumatic. Right. And we know a bit about stress responses. A lot about stress responses. Right. Maybe when folks feel that they are at their capacity for the stress, they can process in the moment. Typically, there's certain ways that we respond. We're used to the homework. Fight, flight, freeze. I like to throw in their fawn. Right. Obsessing over this memory. Um. Do you feel like you would fit into any one of those responses? Fight, flight, freeze, fawn. In that moment?

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

I don't know. I don't remember feeling that. I. I think that there was a sense of disassociation, honestly, you know, because I. I was there, I was watching it, but I didn't feel like I had to run again because I felt safe because he was there. So there was no flight necessarily. Um, and I knew that I couldn't fight the gentleman. You know what I mean? I didn't feel like I needed to get out there and help him or anything like that. I did feel like I wanted to. I. I felt a lot of confusion about why my mother was upset because I was like. Didn't you see what happened? Didn't you hear what I heard? This is why he's doing this didn't come from nowhere. It came. There was something. I knew that there was something that caused it.

>> Shamm Petros:

And your mother's confused. You were confused about your mother's re. Response, reaction. So confusion, safe, calm, the proud. Now, how would you qualify the trauma? You said this was a traumatic experience. What in your body or your mind indicated that?

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

I think when I noticed how bloody the guy's face was, I just, you know, that. That. That bothered me, but not enough for him to stop. But I was just like, oh, he. You know, like, this is. Look at all that blood. That's a mess. And. And I also, um. My mom looking through the, um. What do you call that in the car? The. The glove compartment. I remember her looking for the glove. Like if there were napkins or paper towels or something in there to wipe the blood off my father's hands.

>> Shamm Petros:

And you were in the car with your mother.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

You know, I was just.

>> Shamm Petros:

Your father left the car at the gas station.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

Hm. And I remember my father hollering to stay in the car, stay in the.

>> Shamm Petros:

Car, stay in the car. And I want to thank you for naming all these emotions. That's the, uh, first step, right I want to read them back to you. Proud, safe, calm. There was confusion. Now emotions are important, but if we treat them as a data point, we want to know more about that. I'm very curious because you said the word disassociate a couple of times. In my, my clinical brain, sometimes I tend to put disassociation and even mindfulness on the same scale. Right. I think, uh, the big difference is consent. Mindfulness, you are consenting to being, uh, noticing and observing and removing yourself maybe from the results of the situation. But when we say disassociation, there's a lack of consent there in a way. Right. Your body reacted before any other part of you. So you know, we're getting curious about that. So we want to qualify, and I say qualify by just like, give me the details of these emotions. Because when you say I'm proud at it too, that's very different than, um, I'm proud at it. 10. Right. So you could give, uh, me on a scale to 1 to 10, if you can scale some of these emotions, 1 indicating very little intensity, 10 indicating high intensity. M. Can you help me understand?

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

Right. Pride and safety was like at an 8. And, and, and this was the first time, I mean I, I can give you other incidents like all the way through high school where my father just stepped in. And it wasn't that, that it was physical like that, but there was always, my mother and I were always aware that there was a line. And if we saw people approaching that line, we knew that there was going, something was going to happen. Right. Um, and so I think that this is just the first really vivid memory that I have. But at that point, even at that age, at four, I knew that this guy had crossed a line. I knew it.

>> Shamm Petros:

And that was indicated to you by the physical violence and the evidence of that. Mhm. But you, hm, really elevated safety, that word eight out of ten. And you connect that safety to pride, it seems.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

Well, yeah, I was just like, if you mess with him, this is what's going to happen. If you mess with us, this is what's going to happen. You know, and we have to remember the time. This was 1969. And so it wasn't that folks were so, you know, yes, the civil rights movement and all of these things, but there was still this lingering, uh. Because we still have it now, of course, this tension about how you spoke to certain people. So, you know, I was just raised not to kowtow to white folks. Right. It was look them in the eye, say what you need to Say, keep it moving. Right? And this, how my father reacted was a result of that. That person had crossed a line. My father wasn't having it. Right? And, you know, this is how he was gonna take care of it. So I know for. Because I've shared this story in mixed company before, and I. And I, uh, know that there are some folks that are appalled by his reaction and my reaction, you know, to it. But, um, I also think that there are times when, like I said, I. I feel like this was a moment that just really has shaped how I've moved through the world. And to a larger extent, it has benefited me. You know, it has benefited me. There's, like, this confidence that you know how to deal with white folks, and it doesn't have to be physical, but you know how to talk to them. You don't feel intimidated by who they are. Right. And I know that for, you know, that's 19. Uh, 69 is a long time ago. And things have really changed in a lot of ways. But it has, like I said, I've said a couple of times, it just really has shaped me, and I don't think. I think it's benefited me more than it's harmed me.

>> Shamm Petros:

Love this. When I say I love this, I'm not necessarily affirming that I love the feelings that you had, but I love your ability to articulate. Articulate what you're feeling. Because I. What I'm visualizing is kind of like the most proximate emotions. Right. Your response emotionally of pride, safety, calm. Right. And then, Lisa, I'm also hearing a lot of feelings about the feelings. The initial one being you're, I would say, in some ways, a judgment on, um, yourself, on what you remember, don't remember. Right. How this story is when shared with others, how it may appear. But there's also clarity because you seem to have found great meaning from it. Right. So there's the nuclear of feelings. Any other feelings you want to name here as you think about when you share this story, when other people hear this story.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

You know, I remember I spent years ago, um, Toni Morrison was being interviewed by Terry Gross on Fresh Air, and she recounted a story that happened when she was a very young child living in an apartment building with her parents. And there was a white gentleman that also lived in this apartment building that said something that was untoward to Toni when Toni was very little. And Toni Morrison told her parents and her parents, her father went upstairs and pretty much had the same reaction my father had. And I remember Terry Gross saying, oh, My God, that's horrible. How did you feel about that? And, uh, Toni Morrison said, oh, I felt good about that. That man shouldn't have spoken to me like that. And I remember saying, oh, my goodness. I had that same reaction. What that said to me is like, Terry Gross did not understand the burden that her father was carrying, and he was not going to have his daughter spoken to in that manner. Whatever it was that was disrespectful to Toni Morrison, that father was going to make sure that that ended right then and there. She was almost more appalled that Terry Gross didn't understand what she was saying. She was like, no, my father took care of me. And Terry Gross saw her father as a brute. That's how a lot of people see my father when I share this story with them, as a brute, as opposed to a man taking care of his family.

>> Shamm Petros:

Okay, and what are your feelings about that in particular? The judgment.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

I just think that that is just like the, uh, socialization of how we're. We're meant to see black men that sometimes can be physically, uh. I just think that that's. That's what that's grounded in. I really do.

>> Shamm Petros:

Yeah, I completely agree. But I will say that as a thought. What is the feeling behind that? The classification that they are brute men because they protected their daughters?

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

The feeling that I have is that people really have a total lack of understanding of how black men have been portrayed. That if the tables had been switched, I mean, when we hear of white women being disrespected by black men, they've been lynched and all of these other things. The fact that my father gave this man a beat down, that was. To me, it was. There was a little bit of controlled behavior there. He could have gone further, I'm sure, but he got his point across.

>> Shamm Petros:

And the feeling is pride. Pride again.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

I go back to that.

>> Shamm Petros:

Yes. And, uh, any anger on the scale.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

I remember we had come from some sort of dinner. Oh, my goodness. I was in this cute little dress. I had my little white pantyhose on. I had my shoes on and everything. And we had. And then it ended like this. Like, it just. It was like. Just this heavy. It's just like it just dropped. We had. We had been at such a nice high calm. It was pleasant evening with the family that just, you know, had ended in such a violent way. And it came out of nowhere. It just seemed to come out of nowhere.

>> Shamm Petros:

I'm gonna invite you to take a breath because I needed a breath. Honestly. Your emotions are clear. You have very clearly named them and scaled them, you know, they're present. I want to say even maybe unapologetically so. Strong emotions, strong memories, imagery. I'm hearing a lot of messaging. But we, before we get into that, I want to ask, and you always have the option not to answer this question, to scan your body. If you can locate any of these feelings in your body, can you locate the pride? Can you locate the sense of safety, can you locate calm or even the confusion in your body?

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

Mhm. Yeah, I mean I feel it right here, you know. But I also think it's important to identify. The story has become more potent as I've gotten older because I've come to understand certain things. My father's reaction, that was not just one incident, to be honest, to be truly honest here, M. We dealt with that internally as a family as well as externally. Meaning that we always knew there was a line with my father you didn't cross. I was talking about that earlier. That wasn't just outside with others, that was inside our home too, the three of us. I'm an only child. I think it's important to name that because I've had to come to terms with why did my father sometimes go from 0 to 60 with certain situations, whether with me or with my mom or with the both of us. What I've come to as I've gotten older and matured and learned more about what black men are carrying, especially at that time, all of that has informed how I see and interpret the story. Now at four years old, I didn't have this language. I couldn't say to you, I, I'm traumatized. I was traumatized with this or I was proud of. Like I just understanding as I got a little bit older and like I said, like my father would just seem to blow up at very ah, small things. Now I understand all he had to walk through in the world just to get through day to day that informed, right? And he couldn't turn that on and off. It couldn't be like, well I'm outside and I'm dealing with this now and now I'm inside and I'm a different person. No, he carried that no matter where he went. The sense of wanting to be seen as a competent, strong black man. Now I have a lot more grace. How many years later, 50 some odd years later. Because I understand that's not necessarily what he experienced outside the home all the time. And so a lot of times my mother and I would probably um, have to, we would have to deal with the results of whatever had messed with him outside the home, had disrespected him outside the home, where he felt less than who he was outside the home. We had to carry that burden because he couldn't just go around, keep punching people that would have put him in jail at some point, that he had to show some sort of control in certain situations where he probably really did want to lash out, but knew that that was not gonna be beneficial to the situation long term.

>> Shamm Petros:

Oh, yeah, this is heavy. This is heavy. I'm seeing like imagery of your father. I mean, his response at the gas station in some way being maybe how he wants to respond and maybe even justly could respond to several other moments in his life. I'm also seeing like the domino effect of the story. I think when you started your preamble, one of your preambles to it was traumatic, was there are several other stories just like this. And I mean, this is why we do that work. This is why we get to that first story. You know, been doing this a while. 9.5 out of 10. There's some formula, right? There's some meaning we make out of some of these very first, uh, encounters. Um, an encounter seems like a light word to use for this, but there's. It is what we call an encounter, right? An identity based encounter, racial encounter. There's three involved. We haven't even gotten to the greater context of society, the time, the year, the setting. Right, Just the setting within your body alone is giving us a kaleidoscope of data. I'm going to invite Dwight to really come in and help us understand the self talk and imagery. I want to push you a little bit more before that, Lisa. Uh, because the question, even when people answer the question or answer, uh, it differently, you always get the answer you need. And asking where do you feel in your body? You pointed somewhere I didn't see.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

Feeling it right here. Right in my chest. Here.

>> Shamm Petros:

You said you named it, you held it, and then you went to describe the realities of your father and the complexities he held. I want to bring you back here, maybe even if you want to hold it, if that helps you. You identified the location and I love that. Tell me about it.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

I'm holding my chest right now, like right above my breastbone. I feel mournful. I feel mournful because my father passed in 2015. It was like two years of seriously declining health. And I was fortunate enough to be able to nurse my father through his transition. But I never really told him, as I said, how I matured. His picture became clearer to me. And I wish that I had. I had the words to express that. I wish that I had just been able to give him that acknowledgment, that I know that he did the best that he could. And how sometimes it came off. It looked one way, but it was really grounded in something else. It was grounded in love. It was grounded in, I'm going to take care of you. I don't think that he necessarily understood it. So I just wish that then I'd had the language to acknowledge his struggle. You know, he apologized to me and my mom for being so rigid at times, being verbally abusive at times. But I wish I could have said, now I understand that it, as much as it was hurtful, it wasn't personal to us. It was that we were the only place he could express those things, lay that down. It was destructive to us, but it wasn't about us. It was about what happened once he walked out that front door and what he was confronted with on a daily basis.

>> Shamm Petros:

And you are mournful about that. That experience of his, or you're. You're mournful about not being able to express your acknowledgement or, uh, your gratitude to him.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

Both of them. I'm mournful that we live in a world that lacks kindness and grace to folks that are different. That we, uh. You know what I mean, we can just. We feel like we can treat people any old kind of way, say any kind. But not acknowledging that, uh, it's. It's going to manifest itself somewhere. Their response, how they process things, whether it's good or bad, is going to manifest itself somewhere. There's something about men, black men that were young at a certain age during the civil rights movement, they were promised something that never was manifested. They thought that they did what they were told to do. If they went to college, if they did these things, that all of a sudden they were gonna have a certain world open to them. And that is not what happened. And so I have a lot of friends and colleagues that have very similar stories, as I do about their fathers kind of being like hard asses. That hard ass came from a place of disappointment and protection, it seems. Right. This is what I've come over the years to understand. And it has offered me the opportunity to see my father in another light.

>> Shamm Petros:

And your body again. I want to bring you back.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

Yeah, I mean, my eyes. What do you say? Was it m. My eyes are watering now. My eyes are crying. You know what I'm saying? Like I'm feeling it through my eyes, the emotions coming through here. Right. And, and like I said, I've, I've shared this story before, but I can get very emotional because I'm just like, who wants to walk around caring?

>> Shamm Petros:

Yeah. Uh, we don't want you to walk around caring unduly. Right, right. And you name new feelings. Mournful regret.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

Right.

>> Shamm Petros:

Still in the chest.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

And like I said, the lies, you know, just crying, just.

>> Shamm Petros:

And you know, Dwight, I know you hear this. Oh my goodness, all this self talk, you know, there's so many messages. Yeah. We can get a little curious around the things you're saying out loud to us and we're picking up as a message and maybe the things you receive.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

Right. My work has always been around narrative change and all of this. And so I think sharing the story with you and processing this also demonstrates how our narratives constantly evolve. Right. If we put in this work and things like that, if you had asked me some of these questions, let's say seven or eight years ago, I might not have the understanding that I might not have had the same understanding then that I do now. And so my narrative around my dad and my relationship with my dad has evolved because I've come to understand certain things.

>> Shamm Petros:

Mhm.

>> Dwight Dunstan:

Lisa, it's been quite a journey on my end just listening to your story. And we know this works so well that as soon as someone starts to tell their story, you know, you're, you're with them in theirs, but also your own story comes to mind. And so my, my dad was younger than your dad, but he grew up in Philly.

>> Shamm Petros:

Right.

>> Dwight Dunstan:

In the 60s and was, was hard in so many ways and tough and protective. And you know, your, your story, and this is the power of our stories is, is helping me to have a new level of grace for him. You know, those things he was promised.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

Right.

>> Dwight Dunstan:

But didn't receive and the ways that that disappointment got lived out. So I, I just thank you in so many ways. As a, uh, as a black man who was raised by a black man, just getting to hear your story of your black father. There's something that's, that's just healing for me. So I thank you for that. And I want to just invite in, in this work, you know, you calculated the emotions, you located them in your physical body and you've already done this and going to just ask if there's anything else coming to mind. But we talk about communicating, so if there's any images or self talk come to mind, you brought us into what you were wearing that day. Your mom reaching for the, the paper towels and the glove compartment. These really vivid inner uh, images. These really vivid images. The red, I imagine there's just red and right father's hand and this, this guy's face. You know, all of that is, is swirling in some of the self talk, um, coming up. Any other images or self talk as you were sharing or as you now have some new insight and have calculated feelings about this story?

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

Yeah, you know, I remember we got home and my father was washing his hands in a sink in the basement. How quiet and calm he was about it. Like I said, there was just like this calmness. It wasn't just his reaction to what was said to him in that moment. It probably was pent up from a lot of different things. And unfortunately that cat said the wrong thing at the wrong time to the wrong person and that my father needed to get that energy out of him. He needed to be able to respond in that way. I mean there was authenticity there in that response. But again, I don't think it was just towards that one individual. It was probably 10, 20, 100 people in front of him that kind of pushed him to that place and this is how it was released. I also have images as he was in his final years, how physically he was diminished because my father was very big and broad. He was

like 6:2, 6:

3 and very strong. And then the last couple of years he had lost a lot of weight, he was on a feeding tube and all of that. And just trying to understand that those two images still exist in this one. But I think almost up to when he passed, I still felt like he would still do his best to do whatever he needed to do to protect me. And now his grandkids, you know, his family, that fierceness was still there inside of him. Even though physically he probably would never be able to do something like that again. M. Um, I'm also very grateful that I still carry that confidence with me even though he might not physically be here. So yeah, I'm trying to. Like I said, being able to speak to him, being able to tell him how grateful I was and how I moved forward with that and how it's manifested its way differently with my own children.

>> Dwight Dunstan:

Mhm.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

It was never a physical response, but there was gonna be a response. This was not gonna pass. This was, we're not gonna let this go. You know, when they were in elementary school or middle school and certain things would happen in those environments that I didn't feel they should have had to handle to manage it was for me and my husband to come in and step in to do those things. And the importance of addressing those things as quickly as possible because I wanted my kids to understand that someone always had their back too. It wasn't going to be in a physical. That was not our thing. But there would be something.

>> Shamm Petros:

Mhm.

>> Dwight Dunstan:

Yeah.

>> Shamm Petros:

I'm really curious like that, this, this first memory, right. This experience. If there was a tagline, a hashtag, a message that whispered to you in your ear, what was it like? What was that? Self talk. I have an idea of some of the words, but if it was a directive.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

Yeah, it was just like, don't mess with us. Uh, like this shit, it's going to stop right here. You might have had one. That's it. It ain't going. You're not going past this. Right. It's not going to happen. We're going to address it.

>> Shamm Petros:

That is the most Lisa thing ever. So don't mess with us. We are going to address it.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

Yeah. Just don't. I mean, I was very clear with our kids about that. We're gonna try to give you the tools to address things on your own. But once we find out maybe if that didn't work because you were a certain age and the adult or whoever didn't respond or what have you, that then we would step in, but we would try to give them the tools. Um, whether it's with a teacher who might have kind of gotten out of pocket or, or something like that, or something on the playground or. You know what I mean? Like, no, it wasn't going to necessarily be physical. That's not, that wasn't going to be it. But there had to be a way of self advocacy, addressing things, holding people accountable. Right. Because again, not having the words, you knew that you felt something when it happened that didn't feel good. And so in order to right yourself, you had to address it.

>> Shamm Petros:

A calibration of the greatest extent. But yeah, uh, a calibration, excellent word. And I think that's what you saw. While there was, you know, objective violence. Right. Anybody could probably agree to bystander or otherwise. The way you've articulated the imagery for me, it was more of like he had no choice but to release and express himself. No choice. And this was one of the few moments that publicly, the right time and place, he was able to do that. You know, we, uh, can have a whole other interview on. I wonder what the consequences of that were. Right. But this expression, like a disrupture, if you will, of this is My humanity. Exactly. And that's.

>> Dwight Dunstan:

Mhm.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

And I believe that his health diminished at somewhat of an early age. I mean, he wasn't even 75 when he died. Right. But it's the years of that stuff building up that, that's. That manifests itself in how your health is. The high blood pressure, diabetes, all of these things. Right. Because you didn't have a more healthful outlet for the indignities that you felt you had experienced.

>> Shamm Petros:

Yeah.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

You swallowed, didn't have the language, all of those things. I believe that's what it was. I, uh, you know, I'm sure it was extremely frustrating.

>> Shamm Petros:

I do see this wonderful poetry with you as like an architect of storytelling because in a way that is a great story. My body had to express myself. There was no bounds that I could regard in that moment. And I'm sure the type of man he was, he's already cued in where his daughter is his child, if others are watching. Right. But when we talk about the stories of our lives, we bring it down to what is our body doing, because that is a great story. Your body had no other means of expressing themselves or felt as. So but to pick violence, um, and violence, you know, is something we. It's a crude reality and not acknowledging it incites more violence. I would say not acknowledging the social, emotional violence people go through, it's a quick way to, I think, justify other forms of violence. Um, but Lisa, as an architect of storytelling, as someone that's doing this mindfulness work, as someone that has given us the great pleasure and privilege of hearing and experiencing this story with you, and we're holding, I'm holding my chest as I speak, as a tool for you, is there a way you can, um. If you were to name this story. Right. If you could put it in a jar for yourself so you can open it when you need it. Right. If you can name this story for yourself and yourself only, what would it be?

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

That's challenging.

>> Shamm Petros:

Mhm.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

If I could name it. I mean, it's something between the. Don't mess with us, but the need for. The need for outlets, the need for acknowledgment, the need for accountability, the need for like we, you know, there's that whole, like, if you know better, you do better, Right? Well, we know better now that when we get to that place of we're not going to take it anymore, that there's other outlets for us. Get out and take a walk. Go on a basketball court. Like my father played basketball. Like, you know what I mean? Like if he had, if he had known better, he would have had another healthy way.

>> Shamm Petros:

Mhm.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

Of releasing that. Right. But at that time, the time of his lifetime, we didn't know that those things were more helpful. And so therefore, you know, um, this is almost like the best that I have right now for you. This is, this is all I got. This is what this is, this is where we are and what I got.

>> Shamm Petros:

Oh yes. This is where we are and what I got. Yep. Maybe an optional alternative. Don't mess with us.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

Don't mess with us. Right.

>> Shamm Petros:

That's ring true. Uh, uh, we are going to address it.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

Yep.

>> Shamm Petros:

Oh, Lisa, thank you. And can you scale that 1 to 10 how maybe accurate those titles feel?

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

Oh, that's really like at 11 or 12. Having this understanding, learning these skills, knowing that there are ways for us to self regulate in a way that is not physical, in that way, in a, in a harmful way. There are millions and millions of people that would have benefited from that as uh, opposed to other self destructive things like my father didn't drink, my father didn't do drugs. Like I mean I can't even imagine if he had been someone that drank what his world would have looked like at that time. Yeah. Not having the skills of how to self regulate I think was highly detrimental and kept him from experiencing joy. That's another manifestation I think is important. Wasn't just harmful to those that he lived with or he might have physically harmed, it was harmful to himself. Now y' all know I got a busy day and y' all got me all up in here now.

>> Dwight Dunstan:

You know, I know, I know you, you know, and so, so grateful Lisa and just moved and inspired and heartbroken and prideful and reflective. There's so many feelings going through me. For our listeners, we want to invite you to take a moment you were just witness to and accompany accompanier of Lisa's story. As we turn away from this story, we're going to give you some different ways to be with what arose in you. And so um, stay with us until the very end. But we're just going to close out our time with Lisa before we move into our final mindful moment. And Lisa, you started off by just sharing a little bit of how you're feeling about sharing your story. On a scale from 1 to 10, we talked about 1 being not stressed at all, 10 being like wow, overwhelmed, returning back now that you've shared your story, if you could just scale on a 1 to 10, what would that feeling be? And, and, and where is it on the scale.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

Um, I think now, right now I'm at an 8. But I want to clarify why it's an 8. What you shared earlier, Dwight, about hearing my story and then it making you self reflective of your experience with your father. Another way that we're socialized, especially black families, is we don't talk about these things enough, we don't share them enough. And I really think that it's important for us to share them because it takes us out of isolation, of thinking it's something that only we carry.

>> Shamm Petros:

Mhm.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

And we can learn so much from hearing each other's authentic stories. Fostering a community where people feel brave enough to share these things. That let going of the judgment that someone is going to see my father as being a bad person or something like that, that wasn't the case. You know, people are complex.

>> Dwight Dunstan:

Mhm.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

And I think that this space that you and Sham are working to expand on because lion story, of course this is the work that we do. But to expand um, and being able to bring it to larger audiences is just what we need right now. We need to um, not be isolated to not navigate these very challenging times that we're living in, thinking that we are the only ones that feel this way, that we will learn from each other if we create these spaces and encourage people to share these stories, that we will see how connected we really are and we can help each other.

>> Shamm Petros:

And unapologetically help yourself, Lisa.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

Exactly.

>> Shamm Petros:

I give you permission. I know you are a leader amongst leaders. Right. And even today we delve deep into this story. Our listeners are joining us. They probably feel like they're right next to us, hopefully. Right. And we don't just share emotions for the sake of sharing them. Uh, no. Right. That is maybe how oftentimes storytelling is pitched. We take part in this process. So now you have more data, you have more critical information. And you know, you are uh, a yoga practitioner. You know this, you know, you go through 80 minutes of yoga intensity. You're there questioning everything for that last, what, two, three moments, Savage now so you can sit in your body and feel it all and welcome it. And as a self care measure after care measure, take your title, take your hashtag, write on a sticky note, put it on your laptop today. Because as uh, someone that has worked with you and been led by you without fear, I can see your father's story. Right. Not in a way that's brute or violent, in a way that it's. Oh, the first time I met you, Lisa, there was no You. You can help but express yourself and in some way that it was the most revolutionary way to do it. It's like you will receive me as I am because I have no choice. So take your note, take your breath. You're here because of that. And if you have some time, take a moment to maybe acknowledge your father and say the things you wish you did say. Mm, mhm.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

Thank you. You're right. You're right. And, and, and I think it's also important for us to understand that it's not about getting over this. You. You can. Something can happen and it'll bring you right back to this place again.

>> Shamm Petros:

Yeah.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

Also, hopefully every time you take the time to reflect on it, you learn something more.

>> Shamm Petros:

Correct.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

I think that's important too, to learn and see something more.

>> Shamm Petros:

And you have control. A very strong word you use earlier was permanence. As you got older, the story felt more maybe tangible. Right. I love that we're permanence. Right. Because you located I'm, um, um, reaching my chest. Right. Like it was a cluster, something opaque and solid. And maybe if this dissolves and you could feel it, then you can break it apart to inspiration, to pride. So you can metabolize it.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

Right.

>> Shamm Petros:

And that's what I wish for you, that you can continue to metabolize this narrative and not just get through it, but it's a part of you. Oh, yes. This is. It's so you. It's so you.

>> Dwight Dunstan:

Thank you again so much, Lisa, for your courageous storytelling, your bravery, for the ways you've honored your father today, your family, yourself. You know, we, we know this work is emotional, for bringing your emotions forward for trust and our listeners to hold this story with you. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.

>> Lisa Nelson-Haynes:

And I really appreciate you guys taking the time to, to listen and to walk me through these, these practices. I also want to, um, congratulate you on this inaugural episode of your podcast. Um, we really do need this work. And so thank you, thank you, thank you M. I'm sure it's going to be a huge success.

>> Shamm Petros:

Thank you, Lisa. Yeah. Uh, and thank you so much for tuning in. All of us, our listeners, our peers, our partners for our listeners, know that we are here to help you to build the real courage, the practical language and skills to navigate this discomfort. There's only so many people Dwight and I could train in a year with, even with our wonderful team of trainers. But podcast allows us to expand the reach of our work beyond what we are limited to in a day.

>> Dwight Dunstan:

So until next time, keep listening. Keep learning and keep telling your story. And remember that you, you, you you are your most important listener.

>> Shamm Petros:

Thank you so much for tuning in to Stories that Stay how, uh, Stories of Identity Shape Us. This podcast is a project of Lion Story. To learn more about Lion Story in our work, visit. This episode was produced and edited by Peterson Toscano. Our music comes from epidemicsound.com Music during our mindful moment comes from Dwight Dustman. For our listeners, know that we are here to help you build the real courage, practical language and skills to navigate discomfort with clarity and compassion, starting with yourself. She found value in today's episode. Please consider leaving a review, subscribing or sharing this with someone who needs it. Your support helps us grow our healing community with practical learning resources and training opportunities for individuals and communities that need these tools and skills.

>> Dwight Dunstan:

Until next time, keep listening, keep learning, learning and keep telling your story. And remember you are your most important listener. Thanks everybody.

>> Shamm Petros:

Thank you. Sam.