Growing Up Biracial: Mona Norfleet on Healing and Belonging

In this episode of Stories That Stay, hosts Shamm H. Petros and Dwight Dunston talk with Mona Norfleet—equity advocate, writer, and community builder—about growing up biracial and finding belonging across cultures. Mona reflects on her biracial upbringing as the daughter of Mary Norfleet, an Italian American from the Bronx, and Tom Norfleet, a Black man from rural Alabama. 

Through tender reflection, Mona revisits her earliest memories of racial difference: her father’s warm brown hands and a painful moment of exclusion that reshaped her sense of self. With openness and courage, she explores how storytelling helps transform shame into pride and memory into healing.

“I remember looking at my father’s hands—they were the color of sweet chocolate milk and mahogany wood.”

 “When that boy said what he said, it felt like someone slapped me in the face. I was furious—and ashamed for the first time.”

 “Just thinking of my parents showing up for me—I don’t feel the tightness in my chest anymore.”

What you’ll hear
• Grounding breath and mindful arrival
• Early memories of race and belonging
• Naming and scaling emotions
• Reimagining moments of racial stress
• Healing through story and ancestral connection

About Mona Norfleet
Mona Norfleet is a human-services student, racial-equity advocate, and membership director at her local YMCA. She cultivates belonging across generations and cultures, centering dignity, cultural humility, and lived experience.

Stories That Stay is a project of Lion’s Story, a nonprofit dedicated to building racial literacy through storytelling, mindfulness, and healing. Rooted in over 35 years of research by Dr. Howard C. Stevenson at the University of Pennsylvania, our work guides individuals and institutions to reclaim their stories, reduce identity-based stress, and step into authentic inclusion—not as a checklist, but as a way of being.

Produced and edited by Peterson Toscano.
Mindful moment music by Dwight Dunston.
Music by Epidemic Sound.

Podcast site: StoriesThatStay.net

Hosts: Shamm Petros and Dwight Dunston

Transcript

0:03

Welcome to Stories That Stay, how stories of identity shape us. This is a podcast where healing happens at the intersection of art, science, and storytelling. I'm Shamm Petros, a therapist, learning strategist, former refugee, and reluctant creative. And I'm Dwight Dunston, a facilitator, educator, artist, and proud uncle. Stories That Stay podcast is a project of LionStory. Together at Lion's Story, Dwight and I have spent the last five years training thousands of people to confront identity-based stress and transform their stories into tools for healing and change. So as we arrive with today's guests and her stories, let's prepare ourselves for the feelings, emotions, truths that will emerge. We want to take a moment to settle in together. Wherever you are, walking, driving, resting, moving, we invite you to take a few breaths just for you. And continue to inhale and exhale for the next 45 seconds. you Listeners, remember to keep breathing. Got to the point of what we're doing here, right? To keep breathing and feel it. All right, I'm gonna hand it over to Dwight. Our guest today is Mona Norfleet. Mona is a human services student, equity advocate, and membership director at her local YMCA, where she cultivates belonging and connection across generations and cultures. With a background in community engagement and inclusive program development, she brings a trauma-informed lens to her work, centering dignity, cultural humility, and lived experience. Mona has led local initiatives focused on racial equity, and currently serves as vice chair of philanthropic trusts that supports access and opportunity. She's also a proud mother of an adult daughter who was black, Italian, Puerto Rican, and was raised in a Muslim home. on it. How are you both? I'm grateful. I'm grateful. We're grateful. Yeah, you know, it's something I practice daily, gratitude. Definitely feeling that this morning. Thank you guys for having me. How are you arriving today? Some gratitude? What else are you bringing? I'm a little nervous, just the process. That's par for the course, I think. I feel good. I feel very good. Feel good in life. You'll figure out where I am. And I just feel good this morning. So just happy to be here. Amazing. But you'll see that we'll ask you this question in the beginning and the end. That nervousness. You said a little nervous, right? If I put you on a scale of one to 10, where would you place yourself? Three. Three. Not too bad. Okay. Chill. Right, we love it. We love your ability to articulate it. Thank you. And thank you for sharing. I'll pass it over to dear friend, co-host Joy to take us through the next part of our time together and processing your story. Sounds good. Thank you. And Mona, we have to shout out you and our producer, wonderful producer, Peterson Toscano. Yes. Who you are related to, you know, so we're just honored to have our guest and our producer being the same family unit, acknowledging that here at the top end, holding that nervousness at a three. And, you know, as Sham has invited us and our guest, as we ask you this first prompt, if at any point you feel the need to Settle back into breath, take your time, Mona and our listeners. Feel free to do that. We always ask our guests the same initial question. After that, we'll have some follow-up questions, but we want to start with you, Mona, just inviting you to share your response to this question. What are your earliest memories of difference that you recall? Okay, so I had a few things that came up for me, but really two distinct memories that stood out. And the first one was, I remember like playing patty cake with my dad and looking at his hands. And it was a rare moment back then to, when I was a child, a rare moment for any of us to have any quality time with my dad since he worked so much. I remember his palms were kind of pinkish. and they had brown lines in the creases. And I was fascinated since my palms were pink and the flip sides were beige and olive colored like my mom's. Olive skin that got darker in the sun and showed lines where the sun didn't get to and skin that got golden after day of playing outside of my brothers and sisters. ah No, my skin color was not the rich, smooth brown of my father's. His was the color of sweet chocolate milk and mahogany wood. and my parents' coffee in the morning with cream. His skin, that seems so warm and pleasing like a hug. This is a little difficult to recall only because he died when I was eight. Thinking of him is difficult, but it's also just of the joyous, really lovely to have that memory of his hands and how different they were from mine and just the loving feelings that go into that memory. But the second memory was a little bit more intense in that I was in seventh grade in a brand new school for me. And the differences were like night and day, they were stark. The school was so different than I was used to. So my previous school was made up of mostly black students with a few mixed race kids and two, that was it, two white kids, two white boys. And that school was in the inner city of Hartford, Connecticut, and it was poor. And I attended to until I think I was in sixth grade. But my new school, Watkinson, was also in Hartford city limits, but it was where the similarities ended right there, the city limits. Watkinson had three buildings as opposed to like one unfriendly institutional looking building that I was used to. Watkinson had a large converted Victorian home, a building of classrooms with a gymnasium and a very small A-frame library. I remember that the grounds were immaculate thanks to a full-time groundskeeper. I also remember that the groundskeeper had one of those very skinny gray dogs. It wasn't a gray hound. I think it was a weineriner, a weineriner. I'm not saying it correctly, but yeah. I'd never seen a dog like that before, but it was pretty wild. And the other differences were like many of the students' parents drove their kids into school and didn't have to take the city bus like I did. And instead of frozen lunch that was re-warmed and tasteless like I had at my old school, this school had a chef. and he introduced us to things like French cheese, which was pretty cool. This wasn't the yellow bric-a-cheese that you'd get, like the government cheese. This was good stuff. Some of the students were Jewish and they had different customs and holidays, which were really also foreign to me. was at the time where bar mitzvahs and batz mitzvahs were taking place as their rite of passage. The rest of the students all had seemed to have straight hair with blonde highlights. and seemed to be all thin and graceful. My multicultural hair was wiry and curly and dark and never stayed in place. My body was fuller and rounder and it felt ungainly compared to theirs. One of the biggest surprises occurred one day at recess. I remember this pretty clearly. I was chasing this boy that I had a crush on through one of the buildings. I chased him up a stairwell. and I stood on the bottom floor to look up at his face, his handsome face, which he was so cute. I just remember looking up and seeing his light brown feathered hair and his blue eyes looking down through the stairwell at me. I remember he had ski lift tickets, hey, from his zipper of his Rossignol ski jacket. I remember all of this. He was wearing a light blue button-down shirt and a beige knit tie. He was in our school dress code. We had a dress code at the time. But he looked so good and I was so smitten. I had stars in my eyes. I had butterflies in my stomach, you all the regular stuff. And I started to walk off the stairs really slowly. But then I stopped myself. I was thinking, wait, there's something wrong with this picture. Why am I chasing him? He should be chasing me. So when I had that thought, I stopped and I started to turn away. And right at that moment, when I turned away, I to walk down the stairs. He yelled, Yo, N-word, where are you going? And in that moment, it all came crashing down on me. Like someone slapped me in my face. You know, I had every indication that I was different, but at that moment I understood just how different and why. Instantly, at that time, I felt really angry. I was furious at the boy, but I was furious at the boy and the school. angry with the girls with the perfect hair and the chef with the French cheese and the grounds camper and the A-frame, all of it. But most of all, I was hurt and I hated myself. It was like the first time I really felt embarrassed or ashamed of that blackness. So as intense as that was, it's one of those memories I really recall just being. being very different from the people around me. Mm-hmm. Thank you for sharing, Mona. Yes. lot of richness, a lot of vividness, a lot of details. But also heartbreak, right? Anger. Yeah, anger, rage, disconnection, othering, hate. Mona, in our work, it's rooted in storytelling and some specific tools and strategies to really gain more awareness and meaning and understanding of our stories and the potential stress they hold. And so I'm going to ask a series of questions. Shama and I are going to ask a series of questions in a particular way. And it's not to not go into some of the other details and things. We'll make some space for that. But just if it feels weird for you or our listeners as you're listening, if it feels strange that we're asking these in a way, there's 30 years of research behind this practice. Great. And so, yes, really powerful stories, both of those. As you Reflect on the experience of now having shared them or maybe a moment as you were sharing them. You might have noticed feelings coming up. Just any feelings or emotions around the stories that you shared. Yes, I feel like I was back there in that moment feeling angry. Like I can feel, you know, my anxiety lifting. That cool sense that I had before, it kind of got washed away just in recalling that particular time. Just missing my dad and also having that really terrible memory for a young woman, young person to have just resonates to the higher frequency that's not so great. I appreciate it. honor it. It's there. It's something I've had a chance to think about a lot over the years, work on. Mm-hmm. I heard anger. Is it fair to say that sadness and appreciation also were the feelings? Any other emotions just in the retelling? I'll tell you what I'm not feeling. Like I don't feel remorse. I don't feel embarrassed about telling this story or anything of that nature. feel, I guess I feel fairly for lack of a better word, proud. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so good to notice the feelings you do feel and don't feel, right? Just that awareness is in our world, we say is a skill. So you have anger, sadness, appreciation, and you feel proud. If you have to scale those on a scale from one to 10, one being like, it's a little bit there. It just like nuts me a little bit to 10. It's overwhelming, all consuming. in every part of my being right now, where would you scale one or all of those feelings? Let's say an eight, yeah, eight or nine, a tie of few right now. All for those anger, sadness, appreciation, pride. more intense feelings, the anger, sad, those things I feel pretty strongly up there on the scale. And I think the appreciation just in the nature of that and the pride feels lower, just there for sure, stronger than normal. But these other feelings of the anger and the hatred, those things I feel intensely right now. They'll go away, but you guys will help me too. Yeah, that's one of our hopes. We don't make any promises how the feeling would move, but we'll certainly be with you in it and bring some awareness to it. I'm just to ask you to locate where these feelings, somatically, physiologically. So these feelings definitely are showing up right here at my chest. know you can't, the listeners can't see it, but yeah, right in the deep part. And I also have learned through the years that just locating it somatically in and of itself has been helpful to me, but then also to place a hand in that area where I feel the tightness has been really functional and good for me because it just helps to soothe me, know that I'm present and here with you guys. And I'm not that 12 year old girl anymore. That's really where I feel it. I'm just curious if the gratitude, if the pride are also in that space place too or if you notice anywhere else there in your body. You know, I'm familiar with the uncomfortable feelings coming to the chest area, but I don't know where the pride and uh appreciation where that settles in me. That's a good question. I don't know the answer to that. Yeah. Yep. Yep. And good to just notice the, don't know too, right? The last question I'll ask in this more formal way, and you're doing such a beautiful job of noticing and being, being aware and bringing us into your experience of your stories. Thank you. But the last question I'll ask and then invite Shamin to do some further processing is. Often in our stories, we want to make a little bit more space because you've done this in many ways already. But we invite our folks as they're practicing these skills, building awareness around their stories to just name any other images that come to mind as you tell the story or any self-talk. Things that as you were either telling a story in the present day or things you were saying to yourself back when these experiences happened. Just any images are self-taught coming to mind. Sure, sure. So in the first story, my thought or the images that came up when I was thinking about my dad and stuff is ironic because he was not a touchy feely guy. This was the seventies. He was a black man from the South. He was very, you know, stern. But the image that came up for me was kind of being able to cuddle in his arms and kind of imposing and I was little. So it was nice to be able to get on in there. That is what image. arises when I talk about the hands. The image that comes to mind when I'm talking about the young man is just like how I just knew I had it going on. I thought I was it and I was chasing and he, was so, you know, so the self-talk there was at first very positive because I was thinking, I got this, but that quickly changed when he said what he had to say to me thinking just the absolute opposite, like, damn, I don't have this. and thinking of me in this other way. And so the self talk changed quite a bit to saying, get out of there. Just save yourself while you still can. Hmm m Thank you for that sharing. want to bring Shaman to do some further processing. But for you, Mona, and for our listeners, remember, anytime you need to take a breath as you're sharing or listening, please do so. We'll do. Thank you. take a few breaths and I was doing, I was also placing my hand on my chest as you shared and as I felt. And I hope others could do the same, wherever if they need it. Maybe if it's their belly or their hands. I had to close my eyes even at points when you shared Mona. It was so vivid, you know, and is rich in detail. And the self-talk too, prominent. You know, wait, something's wrong with this image. He should be chasing me. and then the stark reality that followed. I am wondering, as illuminating as the story is, all the details, what happened after? The others here was just, because it feels like it was just the two of you all in the staircase, right? Yeah, was there a witness? What happened post this experience for you? What was your reaction? So my response was, mean, was nonplussed. Obviously I'd heard that word before. I knew precisely what it was, but it's just never been directed at me. So I walked away feeling like I did, like I said, angry, et cetera. But you know what? I didn't have the, um the wherewithal to tell anybody. I've never, I had never told someone, anyone. I did not feel like anyone around me considering where I was could understand. So I instantly felt like. Excuse me, I instantly felt alone. I remember walking back to my locker and just being sort of quiet. you oh which was so starkly different from how I was. Is there another feeling associated with that apart from the feelings you described earlier? From the anger or appreciation or sadness or maybe does this impact the range or the scale of those feelings? It was the first time I think I felt shame about being black, you know, and that was so unusual for me. I haven't, you know, had a real sense of pride about who I was. You know, my parents always tried to say we got the best of both worlds and, you know, I always grew up to feel proud about it. And this time I felt definitely not proud. felt... and fear even. Those things came up for me for Amen, tear. Can you scale those? On a one to ten? How do they? I think... It's definitely like a nine or a 10 for sure. They were intense for me as a young person. I felt it intensely. you And there's another question we pose after this story related, if you will, in the retelling of the story, like it's taking into context all these emotions where you felt in your body, the vividness of the image. I'm also now hearing the protective element you came in with, right? The pride your family gave you. Because you notice difference in your first story. You notice difference, but with pride and curiosity and wonder. But at this stage, and this was sixth grade, so you're about 12 or so, there's a shame emerges about your race. You didn't tell anyone right after. You said you didn't maybe have a direct response. You went to your locker, you were alone, and you chose to not share with others. I didn't have the language, I didn't know it. Now in this world and the retelling the story like you were all kind of time travelers now you're in that space and This is imaginary world where anything is possible, right? And this is your reality if you could go back there and redo that experience in any way What would you do differently? And I'll say also you differently or you can bring in folks. You can bring in different elements Open up the opportunities even for 12 year old you to do whatever the heck she needed to do. That's a great question. Well, I think what would be different or how I would change it or what I do now. I don't know that I changed them in the first place and have put myself in that position. If I did do that, I think I would have definitely talked to somebody afterwards, just knowing that it was as impactful as it was. You know, we all had academic advisors, each student and everything. They served the role of just being like sounding boards for us. They weren't counselors or anything. They were just our teachers, et cetera. you know, they had the ability to listen to us and just hear us out. And I know we had that in place. And I think I definitely would have used, utilized that person in this instance, because it was so devastating. I know that would have helped me probably get through my day and get back up to my bubbly self. Instead of like feeling so downtrodden. And I think that person would have probably told me, I don't know what that person would have told me. It's hard to say, but I know they would have reinforced that I still am beautiful and kind and wonderful and bubbly no matter what. That's what's key and important here is the alchemy that comes from a mixed-race marriage and kids. So if you could redo this moment, you would have sought a caregiver, whatever they look like, for someone to remind you, someone in the building. And I want to say, like, from the hundreds, probably thousands of stories we hear, when folks, particularly people of color, share about this, memory, their first memory around difference or racial difference, it likely happens in a school setting. I can't tell you. I wish I could quantify it, honestly. And it's quite young, know, and people of color experiencing their memories at age four, five, six. And we work a lot with academic settings. There's so many actors, so many ecosystems inter-merging with one another. Just so much socialization going on. So this redo of yours, it's so appropriate. It's just some degree like the most basic thing. Like you're even saying, I know they're not gonna be the best. I know they're just gonna be a soundboard, but here's a pattern in self-talk if I can offer an observation. You said, I don't know what I would want. I don't know what I would want them to say, but somebody should have said, I am still kind, beautiful and bubbly. That is wonderful to know. That's how you saw yourself and that's how you want to focus to see you. Yeah, for sure. Thank you. You know this story, so many stories, and when we do this work, people work on this story over and over and over again. Dr. Stevenson, you know, leads this research, has probably told his first story over and over. Each time, and even with our trainers or participants, the skills we took you to today, those skills, we call that C-L-C-B-E. Calculate, locate, communicate, read, and exhale. Calculate your emotions, all of them. Right? Name all of them, put them on a scale. So you can really engage with them, right? Located on your body. Communicate the images. Communicate the language you hear, self-talk, and to breathe. Calculate, locate, communicate, read, and exhale. Well, we always say practice, practice, practice. There's no perfect here. There's no experts here. What we hope is that you have a skill set so every time you do share, there's a skill that allows you to take care of yourself and truly care for yourself, which sometimes means you're not joyous, that you are just honoring the full colors. I used to tell folks, you know, like your therapist doesn't promise you to leave the session smiling, but maybe, like we said earlier, how these motions move, but that you can move them too with breath. And you have these skills from the tapping to the locating and even the re-imagining. And you're a writer, right? I would even task you to journal the different scenarios. What do you really want somebody to say? That redo? Beautiful. I'm like, right, maybe he would have did something different, but I'm like, what would black dad have done if he came up there? What would have my white mom have done if she came up there? You got, you said you got siblings. What would they have done when they came up? You know what I mean? I'm just like. God, hysterical. Let me tell you, I can hear it in my head because my mom, this was even more stark of a difference between my parents is that my mom was from the Bronx and had a Bronx accent. My dad was from Alabama and had a Southern accent. So I can hear my mother just going off on this kid or my dad, who wouldn't say too much, but I could just feel the energy from what he could have said. My mom, yeah, that would have been terrible. He would have been in trouble. I would have loved to know what your mom would have said. could tell you she'd be like, how are you? What are you thinking? What are you thinking kid? She's just a little girl. Just like what, you know, I could just hear, you know, hear her. She's just. Yeah. And my dad just, you know, he wouldn't have had it one bit. Damn this shit. I can see him. Come on over here. You know, I could just see him wanting to handle him. Yeah. Yeah, just thinking about that and I don't know if you noticed you had this smile. What's the emotion right now as you think about your parents stepping in? I feel like so relieved. Relieved. Yeah, relieved and I just, it's funny because yeah, there would have been a little bit of embarrassment, but just like, yeah, tell that boy. Uh-huh. Get him. Uh-huh, relief that, okay, scale that relief. Scale that relief. That's, you know, feels so good. It feels, like, a 10. Like, just to be there to take care of me and protect me and say to this kid, like, you have problems and I want to talk to your parents and how else they would have handled it as a parent. I felt, you know, like I said, when I walked away, I felt so alone, but the thought of having my parents there for me, especially since they've been gone for so long. You know, my dad, like I said, he died when I was eight. Just the thought of just having him there and just taking care of me. it makes me feel good. That's a wonderful thing that I brought out. That's cool. You just smile, but if you had to locate it that relief uh I do not feel the tightness in my chest anymore just at the thought of having my parents there for me and sticking up for me. I don't feel that same intensity. Yeah, it's amazing. It just sort of dissolved. Just thinking about them being there as a unit for me, the different ways that they would have handled it. But together as a united front for me, it's been a very, very long time since I've had that just because dad's been gone so long and actually my mom died. 20-some odd years ago too. So there's a missing of that there and just thinking of them together and uh showing up for me is a lovely thing. oh Thank you for that. Thank you. Thank you for sharing them with us and with our listeners. Maybe as you're listening, you might think of an early moment in your own lives, right? And who are some of those grown-ups, those folks that you know love you, have instilled in you a love for yourself and who you are? Bring them back with you in these moments. What would that feel like? Just notice what it would be like to bring these loved ones, these caregivers back with you. That's powerful for me. Thank you. just sounds... um I don't cry. I'm not a crier, but I feel like I could, you know, right now. Just, that was a gift. Thank you. Thank you, Mona. And you know, the gift, you could carry it out here, right? Like, this is how adults play. So maybe it's calling someone in your life and recounting. As you did, my mama would have did this. My papa, you know, what's in your practice to journal a voice note? Or maybe just sitting down and imagining it and laughing to yourself and crying. In your favorite corner of the home. The power of imagining what could have happened and bringing folks into that space. You always have that. You can take that with you. See how the feelings change. Your body, you said dissolved. So I'm like, where in your body did it dissolve? There's this constant noticing and resharing you can do with yourself. Thank you. It's a gift on many levels. We want to ask a couple of questions to all our guests just to close out one you know already. What's your stress level now after sharing the story? My stress level, I guess now that I recall my parents, I guess it's much more diminished. So I could say it's back down to about a two. Yeah, that's significant for me. This scaling thing I'm not unfamiliar with, I've worked with my own therapist. She has done that for me before, but I'd have to say even with the tapping and those kinds of things, that significant of a change is unusual for me. I had to just thank you guys for that. That's it. Thank you. And the toolkit is the tool belt, or you know, magic purse, whatever you want to call it, right? So maybe it's all of these things as you need it. You know, you see something that reminds you of a memory that was upsetting and you're like, I'm pissed at it. 12, you know, is a quick care. It's yours to play with. Honestly, I do like the word play for us a lot to regulate and calibrate, right? Sometimes these moments, these memories, these encounters feel insurmountable. Can we look at them as the pieces? Right. For this memory, if you could give this story a title, what would it be for you? No, that's a good one. I'm not so good with titles. I mean, I can write, but the titles are so hard for me. Let's see. uh hashtag haiku I guess it would be more like teenage angst and first memories of difference, something along that line. Mm-hmm Yeah. When you talked about calling upon your parents or what have you, I do ask my ancestors to follow me and help me throughout my day. But you know, our ancestors can seem so distant thinking of like who they are. When I think about my parents in there, ask them to help me, that's much more impactful. Thank you guys for that. feels tangible. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Look closer. Thank you. know, if you write, don't hold back, nothing. You didn't got to show anybody. All right. You could do whatever you want in that world. Okay. And then even dispose of it as you wish. Don't limit your own reimagining or your own healing. Thank you, Mona. Thank you, Mona. Thank you so much for your courageous, generous storytelling and for just allowing us and our listeners to walk alongside you in those experiences and sharing them with us, sharing family with us. My dad passed away 12 years ago and so I did pass some experiences, but things have continued to happen and just your modeling, thinking through what it would be like to have these figures who love you dearly. in these moments, you know, is something even though I practice this work all the time, I can't always remember, but your modeling helped me to remember that that's available to me as well. So thank you so much. No problem. It's my pleasure. Absolutely. And for our listeners, we want to close out with one more breath together. Wherever you are, we just ask you to inhale. Exhale. and continue to do so as many times as you need. We know this work is emotional and for us, that's the point. We want to use that data, the data of our emotions, our physical reactions to help us craft and continue to evolve our stories. you Thank you so much for tuning in to Stories That Say, all stories of identity shape us. This podcast is a project of Lion's Story. To learn more about Lion's Story and our work, visit lionstory.org. This episode was produced and edited by Peterson Toscano. Music during our mindful moment comes from Dwight Dunston. For our listeners know that we are here to help you build the real courage. Practical language and skills to navigate discomfort and distress go with clarity and compassion, starting with yourself. If you found value in today's episode, please consider leaving a review, subscribing, or sharing this with someone who needs it. Your support helps us grow our healing community with practical learning resources and training opportunities for individuals and communities that need these tools and skills. So until next time, keep listening, keep learning, and keep telling your story. And remember, please remember that you are your most important listener.